BOILER ROOM with Jerri Williams
Freeze! FBI!
What drives someone to chase money at any cost? When does the desperate need for parental approval lead us down dangerous paths? I welcome retired FBI Special Agent Jerri Williams to The Film Nuts Podcast to explore these questions through the lens of the 2000 film Boiler Room.
Williams brings 26 years of FBI experience investigating fraud and corruption to this rich conversation. Her career highlight—a three-year undercover operation dubbed "Operation Duct Tape" that took down 14 telemarketing fraud operations—mirrors the financial crimes depicted in the film. She shares fascinating behind-the-scenes details about how real-world telemarketing scams operate, explaining how fraudsters would bribe procurement officers with gift certificates to approve wildly inflated invoices for everyday products.
But what truly captivates Jerri about "Boiler Room" goes beyond its crime elements. "The fact that it was related to the type of work I had done in the FBI was what made me interested in watching it," she explains, "but once I watched it, it was the redemption story that got me hooked." Jerri and I explore the film's emotional core—particularly the devastating relationship between Giovanni Ribisi's character Seth and his father, a federal judge who shows nothing but disappointment in his son's choices.
The discussion reveals surprising personal connections, including Jerri's confession that her very first job was in telemarketing, creating a full-circle connection to her FBI career and her appreciation for this film. She also shares insights on media portrayals of law enforcement, critiquing shows that glorify corrupt tactics while praising stories that show accountability.
Whether you're a crime drama enthusiast, interested in financial fraud, or simply appreciate stories of redemption, this episode offers a uniquely informed perspective on Boiler Room that will make you want to revisit this underappreciated gem of American cinema.
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Transcript
Taylor D. Adams: 1:13
Hey folks, welcome back to the Film Nuts podcast. I am your host, your cinematic guide and hopefully your friend, taylor D Adams. Thank you all so much for joining me today. You guys ever try really hard to make someone proud but end up just screwing everything up. No, just me, okay. Well, in today's episode we're discussing a movie about someone who's just trying his best to make a living, trying to make his father proud, but he just can't seem to get it right. In Boiler Room, the pressure our main character, seth, feels is augmented by the ways popular media and society tell him, as well as us, what success looks like. And sometimes that influence can be so strong that sometimes your exciting new job as a junior stockbroker turns out to be just a cog in a giant financial crime ring. But Seth is determined to make things right and that's why my guest today loves this movie.
Taylor D. Adams: 2:13
Jerri Williams is an author, podcaster and retired special agent with the FBI. Her podcast, fbi Retired Case File Review, dives deep into crimes, frauds and schemes her and her colleagues have investigated over the years. So her background, mixed with her love of redemption stories, makes Jerri the perfect guest to discuss Boiler Room. Jerri and I talk about how she first got involved with the FBI how a telemarketing scam actually works. And does Boiler Room deserve to have a shoe thrown at it? Don't worry, she explains what that means. So let's talk stock tips and daddy issues. Here's Jerri Williams talking about Boiler Room on the Film Nuts podcast.
Jerri Williams: 3:01
I'm really good. This has been a fun and interesting time for me as far as being an FBI agent. A lot of things going on.
Taylor D. Adams: 3:14
Yeah, I was actually going to ask you. I kind of turned off my news feeds a while ago, just because things got really overwhelming. But for you as a retired FBI special agent is that correct? But for you as a retired FBI special agent?
Clip: 3:27
is that correct?
Taylor D. Adams: 3:29
What is your take or what are your worries or concerns about what is happening right now with the current administration's involvement with the FBI?
Jerri Williams: 3:38
It's concerning. I mean, the FBI has fought to be independent for its entire existence and now I just wonder. You know I'm, I'm gonna, I'm on a kind of wait and see mode, trying to figure out, you know, what's going on, what's happening. Things are moving so fast that I just have to take the time to not panic and not think of things to worry about and just wait and see. I mean, I am so connected to the FBI, even though I retired it's nearly 20 years ago, so I retired in 2008. But I'm still very connected, I keep up to date on what's going on. And so, yeah, I'm in a wait and see mode, but I am concerned.
Taylor D. Adams: 4:32
What did the FBI when you were involved? What did it mean to you? Actually, I want to rewind even further back. How did you first become an FBI agent?
Jerri Williams: 4:42
Well, I was a juvenile probation officer. I had majored in psychology and the position that I had was actually called an aftercare counselor. So I was using my psychology and during therapy with the families of the kids that I had under my caseload. All of them had been adjudicated and sent away to reform schools and group homes throughout the state of Virginia, and I traveled to them trying to help them integrate back into the community once they were released, and so that was what I did. And then one day I saw this newsletter that said the FBI was looking to hire more women and more minorities, and I had never even thought about joining the FBI. I wasn't afraid of law enforcement in the sense that my roommate, who is still my best friend today, was a police officer after graduating from college, and so I was already connected to that. Graduated from college, and so I was already connected to that.
Jerri Williams: 5:52
So I thought let me give him a call and see what this is about. And, luckily for me, the agent who answered the phone, randy Waldrop, I'll always remember him. He recruited me. I was on the phone with him for at least 45 minutes, you know, as he told me about the FBI because this was back before the internet. So I mean to do research you had to, you know, get up and go to the library, you know, or buy some books. So he told me about it and it just interests me, and I thought, yeah, which was good, because about six months later I was walking into the FBI Academy.
Taylor D. Adams: 6:30
What happened during that recruitment process? What sold you on being a part of the FBI?
Jerri Williams: 6:37
If I'm going to be really honest.
Taylor D. Adams: 6:38
I would love if you were really honest.
Jerri Williams: 6:41
Because I don't know if this makes me sound good or what, but it was the salary. I was doubling my salary. I was making $14,000 a year as a juvenile probation officer in Newport News, Virginia. This is back in 1982. And when I found out that the starting salary for an FBI agent back then was $28,000. I mean, exactly, you know, double. Yeah, I was like this is going to work. We're going to make this work.
Taylor D. Adams: 7:15
Yeah, there is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Like, oh, double what I'm making. Yeah, I'm in. Like cause, like what I mean, it feels it's a job, it's a task, it's a job, it's a task, it's a career. Was there ever a point where let's say, okay, the, the salary got you in. You're like, yeah, now I'm in. Was there ever a point after that, when you were were being an fbi agent, that you felt like this was like the good work that you were?
Jerri Williams: 7:42
doing? Oh, absolutely. And I think you start to feel that when you first get in, when you're at the FBI Academy, and you start learning about the history, start learning about the cases, start learning about the of violations and protecting our communities, and then you start to feel like, okay, this is more than a job, as the slogan goes for the FBI. It's a job like no other.
Jerri Williams: 8:23
And you really start to understand that and you really start to understand that and even though you hear a lot of stuff about the FBI now, when an FBI agent goes into a community, interacts with a victim, they feel happy TV shows and they've read the books and they've watched the movies and what most people know about the FBI they get from entertainment media the books, the TV shows and the movies and so, yeah, they're relieved that we're there and when you have that type of interaction, you feel it and you feel proud and you know that. You know it's a job that means something.
Taylor D. Adams: 9:15
So so, speaking of media, you were with the FBI till 2008, 2008. And so you retired from the FBI, and now you've got a media empire going on.
Clip: 9:33
You've got a long running podcast.
Taylor D. Adams: 9:35
You've authored a number of books, so what was that pivot like, and why did you even pivot toward that direction After I?
Jerri Williams: 9:44
had worked this career, working fraud and corruption, for most of the time I was in the FBI. The last four or five years I was appointed as the spokesperson for Philadelphia. I was their media rep. I was the one going out to the public For the branch of FBI.
Taylor D. Adams: 10:02
For the whole FBI. Philadelphia Okay, got it.
Jerri Williams: 10:14
FBI Philadelphia. I was the spokesperson speaking to the media and the public about the FBI and what the FBI did. I was also a reader. I've always been a reader in my entire life. I'm an Air Force brat. We traveled all over the world Germany, England, Morocco, France, and then even in the States Maine, Massachusetts, Spokane, Virginia so I was always moving, never lived anywhere more than three years, and so books were my friends, knowing that one day I'd like to write one. And also this career side where I was now the spokesperson and being in front of the camera and and promoting the FBI and so for right.
Jerri Williams: 10:59
When I retired, I took another role in that area. I was the director of media relations for SEPTA, which is the transit system in Philadelphia your buses, your trains, your trolleys, your subways and so now I'm out there again in the media promoting the Philadelphia transit system. I had already done it with the FBI, promoting and preserving the public perception of the FBI, and so when I decided I wanted to start writing books, I already had that background and so I thought how do I use this to get people to find me and get people to be interested in reading my books? And that's when I became a podcaster. Most of my career I worked fraud and corruption. Okay, you know your embezzlements, your advance fees, advance fee schemes, Ponzi schemes.
Taylor D. Adams: 11:56
What is that?
Jerri Williams: 11:57
Advance fee is when maybe you want a loan, you're trying to get a loan for your, your business, and so you go to a broker. No banks are going to give you a loan, so you go to a broker. No banks are going to give you a loan. So you go to a loan broker and he asked for an advance fee to find you capital, to find you an investor, okay, and they take your money and then they don't do anything, okay, okay.
Jerri Williams: 12:20
And that happens a lot, and there are complicated cases because you have to prove that they did nothing or they never had the means to do anything, because otherwise it's just a bad business deal. So I I love those cases. I worked a lot of those cases, but I also did and this will go into the movie that we're talking about business to business telemarketing fraud, and that was pretty exciting too. Why was it exciting? Because the fraud, the scam, the deception is right out there and of course you're going to capture that it's a telephone call. So you're going to do a lot of consensual monitoring electronic monitoring where you're going to do a lot of consensual monitoring, electronic monitoring where you're capturing those recorded statements. And you know it's always fun to be able to go after a bad guy and use their own words against them.
Taylor D. Adams: 13:21
You got them on tape and you're like no, we, this is this. Is it? This is what we?
Jerri Williams: 13:25
didn't do that. Oh, you didn't say that, are you sure? Yeah, let me play this back to you.
Taylor D. Adams: 13:30
I was good, is that? That's got to feel very satisfying when you've got proof of somebody, you've got the receipts.
Jerri Williams: 13:36
You've got proof of somebody just lying through their teeth there is nothing better and you know, and during the time that I was working those cases, social media and you know, texting was not as, and even emails, if you can think about it, a lot of those cases.
Jerri Williams: 13:52
I worked in the 90s, so now it's even better. I mean, it's like the gift that keeps on giving when you're trying to prove something. You just go back to social media, see what they said, go back to email, go back to their texts. See what they said. Go back to email, go back to their texts. You know, see what they said. You know what they were telling people.
Taylor D. Adams: 14:11
It's a pretty good deal. So, with that background and going toward this telemarketing fraud, tell me why you wanted to talk about Boiler Room.
Jerri Williams: 14:21
Boiler Room has always been a movie that sounds kind of corny, but it captured my heart.
Taylor D. Adams: 14:28
There's nothing corny about that at all.
Jerri Williams: 14:37
That's awesome. You know the movie, of course, is about, you know, fraud and corruption where you have, you know, a group of young men trying to get rich quick by conning people out of their money.
Clip: 14:47
Harry, Harry, listen to this Jesus.
Taylor D. Adams: 14:52
Christ, what's going on over there?
Clip: 14:54
Do you see what I'm saying? People know the whole place is going nuts. It's already at the point. It just came off the restricted list. Look, I'm advising all my clients to get in on this, and heavy, Don't you see? You get the same stock that we picked up at eight. Only now it's at four. When it was at eight, I told you it was going to 20, right? Yes?
Clip: 15:09
you did.
Clip: 15:10
Well, it's still going there, probably even higher now. This doesn't change anything, except that you're going to be making more money than you did before. Harry, I liked it at eight, I love it at four.
Jerri Williams: 15:20
It's an average down for you, but is so heartbreaking that I just loved it. I watched it again last night in preparation for coming here, and it got me again.
Taylor D. Adams: 15:33
Do you remember the first time you saw this?
Jerri Williams: 15:37
I don't recall the very first time, but it would have been sometime like 2003 or 4, because the movie came out in 2000. And I wasn't going out to the movies very often, so I had to wait until it got to blockbusters. So we're going back. Yes To blockbuster time.
Taylor D. Adams: 15:59
I miss blockbusters so much yeah, so do I.
Jerri Williams: 16:01
It was just kind of fun going through and looking at the you know the covers of the different videos and making your choices. So it would have been probably three or four years after it had come out. But it was also after I had worked this business of business, telemarketing and so many of the things that were in the movie. I had experienced myself in investigating this case, which I worked on for three years, oh wow.
Taylor D. Adams: 16:31
So I can't remember within the movie how long, how long of a time things take. But, and also, the FBI is like, not, it's not. There's not a lot of FBI presence in this movie. They're there because they serve an important purpose. But is three years a normal amount of time to try and prove, gather enough evidence for a case like this?
Jerri Williams: 16:57
Well, my case was much larger. In the movie in Boiler Room, they're investigating one boiler room, one firm, yeah, one firm, and mine. I went after 14 at the same time, whoa, so that's why it took so long.
Taylor D. Adams: 17:18
That's why it takes a long time, right.
Jerri Williams: 17:19
And because I had this undercover phone bank, that should I explain the case Please? I would love to hear it. So it was business-to-business telemarketing fraud. So, somewhat like when telemarketers call individuals, there are people who are sitting in a boiler room or a call center and they have these leads of businesses throughout the country and, instead of selling stock or investments like they are in boiler room, they were selling industrial products and so their whole thing was to get to the procurement officer or the maintenance person in this particular business, whether it be a school or just a large corporation.
Jerri Williams: 18:10
They were trying to get to the person that was in charge of ordering industrial products light bulbs, cleaning solutions, duct tape, things like that. And, matter of fact, the case was called Operation Duct Tape, because in the FBI when you have a large case you get a code name. So it was Operation Duct Tape and the whole purpose of the person that was calling was to get to the procurement officer and bribe them. Bribe them to then approve invoices for products that were obviously overpriced, usually the minimum 10 times what it would cost you to purchase that in a legitimate place. Okay, and so the whole purpose was to bribe them, to get them to approve the invoice and, at a point where maybe they were getting too much being shipped to them, just improve the invoice and not even ship the merchandise. And they were being bribed with gift certificates from big stores like sears sears, I don't even think sears is still operating I can't say yes or no, but Sears and your kind of like Home Depots and things like that.
Jerri Williams: 19:32
They were sending them gift certificates so they could get things like big screen TVs, refrigerators, riding lawnmowers, washer and dryers. So this was being sent to the procurement officer at their home. Okay, and I believe they might have used this term in Boiler Room, but they were looking for a taker. So when you made that initial call, you knew that your procurement officer that you were talking to as the salesperson was a taker. If he allowed you to get his home address so that he could mail these gift certificates to their home, then you knew somebody was a taker. They were willing to take a bribe in order to improve these invoices and it was millions and millions of dollars and for some reason, I don't, my understanding was that Philadelphia was like the center for this type of scam.
Jerri Williams: 20:30
Okay, there were lots and lots, and that's where you were working and that's where I was working in Philadelphia. And so once I heard about it, once I learned about it, we decided to do this operation, this Group 2 undercover operation, where we luckily went after one person first, which is like in boiler room. There are so many similarities but we went after one person first, or one organization, one telemarketing firm first, and then we use those two individuals the owners to become cooperating witnesses, individuals, the owners to become cooperating witnesses. And then I was able to get them to pass out leads to all these other organizations that they were connected to. They thought they were calling people all over the country and they were really calling me. And so everybody who manned the phone banks, these fictitious companies, fictitious organizations. When we picked up the phone, we became a procurement officer who was very, very greedy. I was more than happy to accept the gift certificates, to ignore invoices and approve invoices Wow. So you were an actor.
Jerri Williams: 21:57
Yeah, which is really fun and not as dangerous.
Jerri Williams: 22:02
Especially over the phone, because I was doing it over the phone, yeah that's voice acting that's great, so it was a lot of fun, and so the reason it went on for three years is because we were getting all these companies and so I couldn't take down. Once I had the information, uh, or the evidence for one company, I couldn't take it down because I was still working on other companies and actually they were stealing leads from each other. So maybe initially I believe it was like maybe eight or ten companies that we targeted yeah but I ended up 14 because other companies somehow got those leads.
Jerri Williams: 22:45
Maybe salesmen moved to a different organization and they started calling our fictitious phones. Wow.
Taylor D. Adams: 23:00
It was really interesting to a case that you had recently worked as well, as this emotional component Was that kind of like. That's what made you keep this movie in mind the more time went on.
Jerri Williams: 23:16
The fact that it was related to the type of work I had done in the FBI was what made me interested in watching it. But once I watched it, it was the redemption story that got me hooked. I'm a girl for a good redemption story, you know, that's what I write. The books that I've written are redemption stories. That's what I like to read. You know police procedurals or crime stories where somebody you know it may be the target, the bad guy, it may be the agent you know has a story of redemption and I love that. And this movie goes way out when it comes to that the feel, the need, the pain, the agony of wanting to be better than you are, the pain, the agony of wanting to be better than you are. And that's what our main character, whose name I can't Seth, seth Seth Seth Davis, who is played by Giovanni Ribisi he, just, he's such a great actor.
Jerri Williams: 24:22
Yes, yeah, he's such a great actor and I believe the story and, yeah, I just love the movie.
Taylor D. Adams: 24:31
Well, you talked a little bit about how the case is similar to something you worked on. You've authored many books, including this one you just gifted me which I really appreciate, about kind of the FBI myths and misconceptions inside the TV shows and movies we watch. Misconceptions inside you know the tv and the tv shows and movies we watch, so kind of on this let's say, would you throw your shoe at this movie or is this? No, this is like this is a proceed protocol wise, this is a good fbi.
Jerri Williams: 25:02
Yes, that that is my rating system, because the reality is that when it's not just police officers and FBI agents when we watch a crime story, it's the same thing with doctors when they watch a medical story, lawyers when they watch a legal drama. There are some times when you're watching this and you think this person has done absolutely no research and you want to take the book, if you're reading the book and throw it across the room. Or if you're watching a TV show or movie, and you want to take the book if you're reading the book and throw it across the room. Or if you're watching a TV show or movie, you want to take your shoe off and throw it at the TV because it is just so unauthentic.
Taylor D. Adams: 25:41
Is that a word? Yeah, sure, I think it is.
Jerri Williams: 25:42
Yeah, inauthentic, yeah, it's inauthentic.
Taylor D. Adams: 25:44
Not authentic.
Jerri Williams: 25:45
Yeah, it's not authentic. And you just think, couldn't you have just done a little research? And so in writing this book FBI Myths and Misconceptions a manual for armchair detectives I have done the work for everyone.
Taylor D. Adams: 26:01
You mentioned that you like the redemption story. What about? Can you go any more specifics about what about that redemption story is so good for you to watch?
Jerri Williams: 26:13
well, I think probably because, knowing story structure and that you should try to strive for an arc. You know an arc, you know where the your main characters again, whether they're bad guys or good guys start at one point and go through a journey to another and the redemption plotline serves that very well and I like to see that journey. I don't want just I'm not that much into thrillers where there's action, action, action, something happening every time, because I really like that personal story and so something where they do show you that home life. You know police procedurals are great because if you do them right you have that crime that the character is solving, but you're also learning about them and how it affects. As a matter of fact, joseph Wambaugh, rest in peace who recently passed away. Had this saying that I always loved. Passed away. Had this saying that I always loved and it is that a good crime story is not how a cop works on a case, but how a case works on a cop.
Taylor D. Adams: 27:37
Hmm, okay, yeah, I see that.
Jerri Williams: 27:40
And so that really is what redemption stories are about. It's whatever the person is doing and going through, how that helps them change. Whether it's redemption stories you're supposed to change for the good, I like to see that journey, that change.
Taylor D. Adams: 27:59
What about the? When we talked off mic, you talked about how you really loved the. You talked about how you really loved the relationship between Seth and his dad, the judge. What about that was so interesting to you?
Jerri Williams: 28:15
It was dramatic and it was so real, and there's not a lot of shows where they go into such emotional depth when they talk about some of those uncomfortable relationships between fathers and son. You might have one where the kid is trying to get the father's attention and the father's too busy with work, but this one it's almost as if the judge, who is the father, really resents his son's lack of ambition. Uh, I dropped out.
Clip: 28:54
Wanna tell us why? Well, I gave it to you, dad, and it's just not. It's just not for me, I see. So that means you've been lying to us for six months Six months, seth.
Jerri Williams: 29:05
School's fine, dad. My grades are good, dad. All right, let's just leave that for a second. Uh, so you dropped out?
Clip: 29:12
That means you haven't been getting your student loan checks right. Is that right? How you making a rent every month, seth? Well, I'm running a business and I'm just earning a living.
Jerri Williams: 29:25
Earning a living. Is this what you call earning a living? Is that earning a living? Earning a living Is this what you call earning a living? Is that earning a living? Huh, I mean, at one point in the movie there's a scene where he actually calls him an unbelievable piece of shit and it was like whoa, this is a father talking about their son, and there are other lines and it was just so heartbreaking but real. I mean. I don't know anybody that personally from my family, but I've heard of stories and heard of people talk about having these really um, sad and you know relationships with, with parents and this one showed it in a way that was so raw and so out there that it just it. I mean it's as a mother of of three kids and, you know, a grandmother. It just really affected me and and always will. Every time I watch, you know, the relationship between the father and the son, the judge and Seth will always tear at my heart.
Taylor D. Adams: 30:37
Yeah, the relationship was super interesting to me, especially when we see, like the start of the movie. We see, you know, we have this like flash forward of of like there's a big party happening, All these stockbroker, stockbroker dudes on a bus about to have a party, but then we see Seth, kind of flashback, and he's running his own business Granted, it's, it's, it's a casino out of his house, Right.
Clip: 31:01
It's illegal. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah.
Taylor D. Adams: 31:04
But I think that's what's so interesting is that he's making money doing something illegal and his father is disappointed in him. Disappointed is probably the milder word for what he is feeling. He's disgusted yes, very much so. And so he, because he loves his dad and wants to make him proud, he decides to clean up his act in one way or another and finds this in for a stock, being a stockbroker basically, and when that turns out to be also illegal, the fact that they were both illegal, I think, is really interesting with this, because all Seth was trying to do was survive and make money, which I think is super interesting. When his father talks about his lack of ambition, he's like, no, he actually has it, it's just not in a way that you approve of. And then when he tries to go for lack of a better term straight, he unknowingly is then doing something illegal.
Jerri Williams: 32:00
And I think his motivation to me is really more than just trying to make money. He's trying to make money to make his father proud. That is his primary goal, and whatever he does is to make his father proud. And the first one I don't know why he didn't realize his father was not going to be happy about him running an illegal casino, you know, in his home. But the second one again the word heartbreaking that he thinks I finally made it. You know, I'm going to take my Series 7 and I'm going to become a stockbroker, and his father was proud. His father was really excited when he heard that he was going to, you know, to do that, and he was very, very proud. And so when Seth slowly realizes that it's illegal too, this is a fraud, he's actually got it. I mean, he is just he's not sure what to do. He wants to get out. He begs his father to help him get out because it's happened and he's so embarrassed.
Clip: 33:14
And the casino. The casino was a fucking business and I ran it pretty fucking well, dad, and to think that I closed it for you.
Clip: 33:24
Wait, wait, wait, wait. When did you close it?
Clip: 33:27
And then I went after this job because I thought it was what you wanted me to be doing.
Clip: 33:31
Seth Seth. Wait a second. When did you close it?
Clip: 33:35
And I tried to make the changes that you wanted me to, and I'm leaving JT. Now. I'm just asking you for this one thing, dad. Just this one thing, please, just to help your son.
Taylor D. Adams: 33:48
Was there ever a point when you were first starting out in your career, was there ever a goal to make your folks proud?
Jerri Williams: 33:55
Oh, as soon as I became well, I think they were proud when I went to college because they didn't go to college. So you know, I think in most cases, every child wants to make their parents proud. They want to show their parents that the values and you know, and the love that you've given to me. I'm returning that by being an upstanding citizen in the community. So, yeah, we all want to make our parents proud and when I became an FBI agent, I think they were extremely proud. They were there with me when I was sworn in I. You know I have a picture that I keep. Oh, that's so cool.
Jerri Williams: 34:40
Neither of them are still alive, but they were very, very very proud.
Taylor D. Adams: 34:45
So I kind of want to dive in a little bit more about kind of with Giovanni Ribisi's character. I don't it's like there's kind of a fully realized redemption, because the movie ends kind of abruptly. Yes, it does, and so we don't really get to see, like the the the aftermath of his choices, but we do get to see the thing that sparks him to kind of change his ways and also go to his father and try to try to get him to help him, and then the father gets caught on on tape I want you to testify.
Clip: 35:27
What are you offering? Full immunity and what? What happens with my father? I mean, he won't do any time, sir. I haven't done anything legal. So then what's the deal? Then the deal is I lose my judgeship, just going along for the ride. I have nothing to do with that, excuse me. What is that supposed to mean? You're going to release the tape to the press. Makes your case much more glamorous with the involvement of a federal judge.
Taylor D. Adams: 35:53
It's so interesting to me that this movie decides not to show us how the case is resolved. How would this case resolve, do you think?
Jerri Williams: 36:05
Well, that was the one thing about the movie when we get into how I like to review movies for teachable moments. Seth's relationship in the FBI kind of was off Because Nina Long, wonderful actress, but I don't understand why they went to her when they could have gone directly to Seth, you know, and gathered a lot of that information. But I think his redemption does take place in the movie when he starts to see these clues that it's illegal and he continues to search them out.
Jerri Williams: 36:44
I think we would not have called that redemption if he saw something and he ignored it yeah, that's true, but the fact that he kept looking and kept finding and kept searching for what was illegal and how he could get out of this. Of course he was trying to get out of it in a way where he would still make some money, but the redemption, I think, is solidified when he goes out of his way to get the money back from the one victim whose life he's destroyed by taking their life savings.
Clip: 37:22
His name is Harry Renard. I don't know him. Well, I think you should, because we're about to lose him and he dropped $50,000 on Ferro Tech this week alone. And you want to do what? Well, I want to keep him here. I think that we should give him a chunk of the MedPAD and IPO. We don't just hand out an IPO to somebody who had a bad day in the market. Look, michael, this guy is a fucking whale and he's going to do an obscene amount of business with this firm. You're somehow just sure of this. Yeah, the guy completely trusts me. He doesn't even need the money. He owns the biggest foods company in Wisconsin.
Jerri Williams: 37:59
So I do even need the money. He owns the biggest foods company in wisconsin, so I do think the redemption is shown in the movie.
Taylor D. Adams: 38:02
Okay, yeah, you know. Yeah, you're right.
Jerri Williams: 38:03
I think what I think of is like I wanted to see all the guys go I wanted to see the whole firm just get burned to the ground well, you saw that in a sense, when the caravan yeah cars pulled into the parking lot and you know what was going to happen next. Yes, for me, that would have made the whole movie. You know what was going to happen next? Yes, for me, that would have made the whole movie. You know, to continue on to all of that next phase. That would have made it a real FBI movie for me.
Jerri Williams: 38:28
Um this one is really features. You know our has an FBI element to it, but it is not an FBI movie. Yeah.
Taylor D. Adams: 38:38
Cop shows and movies have just been around forever, like it's it's a big thing, it's, it's rife material for procedural shows to show just really good stories. We like as audiences, we like seeing people who are good at their jobs, regardless of what that job is. Um, but there's also like a lot of I mean, mean I don't the popular term with like shows like Law and Order and stuff like this, with like a lot of stuff that Dick Wolf creates. It's kind of this like the this copaganda model where, like, we're portraying our heroes as police officers. You know, we want to celebrate the renegade who believes he's above the law because he gets results. Is there anything that you've seen, show or movie-wise, where you see something along those lines that you personally feel is detrimental to almost like a law enforcement reputation? Chicago, okay, chicago. Pd yeah, okay.
Jerri Williams: 39:34
Because there is a corruption and an undercurrent of doing whatever means is necessary to get the bad guy. I've only watched that show once or twice and it turned me off right away, you know, to think that people are watching this and thinking that this underhanded way of going about justice, you know, is acceptable. And so there are TV shows that show that, in a more of a conspiracy where everybody's involved in this activity, that turns me off. Of course you know everybody's going to have. That turns me off. Of course you know, you know everybody's going to have. In every situation there are going to be people that, uh, are going to go off the the the path that they're supposed to be on yeah, and so showing that as an individual and then, of course, following through and showing that person, get you know the consequences of that.
Jerri Williams: 40:39
I love those stories, but one where you have somebody who's supposed to be the good guy but is all doing all this underhanded and bad stuff behind the scenes. That turns me off.
Taylor D. Adams: 40:52
Yeah feel like there's I feel like there's almost this modern sense of watching um, watching someone who has a certain profession, whose job is to fight crime or do good or whatever it is. There's almost like an escapist mentality where we want to see the ideal version of how those things happen, like we don't want to see as much as we you know, we might have a bit, a little bit of rebellious spirit against. Some of us have a rebellious spirit against authority and all this other stuff. I feel like, at at the very base level, we all want to see, like you said, quote, quote, unquote. Justice come full um is. Is there anything I mean you mentioned chicago pd? Is there anything that we're kind of as viewers when we watch shows like this? Is there anything we should be aware of about what might constitute a quote, good or bad representation of law enforcement?
Jerri Williams: 42:05
Reality. You know you don't of course, as creators. You know as novelists or screenwriters. You know you want to use your imagination to create your story, but you can also look at what is happening for real to get that story foundation and so, hopefully, when you have a bad cop, the reason that you know that person's a bad cop is because of the consequences that that person has faced. We want that.
Taylor D. Adams: 42:47
That's for sure.
Jerri Williams: 42:48
It doesn't always happen, but we want that. It's also very American to want stories to end happily.
Taylor D. Adams: 42:59
I mean.
Jerri Williams: 43:00
I've watched foreign films and they end with the person that you've been cheering for the whole film having something terrible happen and you're like what? That's not what I wanted. No, that's not what I wanted at all, all and so, but we like that, we like a happy ending here and so, um, the happy ending for me in a show that shows law enforcement acting badly is to make sure those law enforcement officers are receive consequences they're held accountable.
Taylor D. Adams: 43:35
Yeah, I feel like that's. Yeah, I agree with you there, like I want, it doesn't matter what what color uniform you're wearing, or if you're wearing a uniform at all. Like if you do something bad, we all want people those people, to be held accountable, regardless of who they are.
Jerri Williams: 43:54
And going back to the movie in Boiler Room, you see that. You see that the people that did wrong are going to be held accountable.
Taylor D. Adams: 44:04
Do you have a favorite moment or scene from this film?
Jerri Williams: 44:11
It's that heartbreaking scene where Seth goes to the judge and admits that it's wrong and he is crying, he's sobbing, he's begging his father to help him. I mean, this, he's a young man, but he is a man and for him to now revert to the most child and child is not in a negative way. But this, this is a young, this is a boy crying and asking and begging for his father's love. That scene, I mean, it's just so well acted, you know, and I I think for me. A lot of times when I'm watching a show, there are things in it that take me out of the story, and this is one that put me so deep in that story that it's become one of my favorites.
Taylor D. Adams: 45:10
You bring up a good point about just the child aspect. I think everyone other than the judge in this movie and the FBI agents or everyone involved with the JT Marlin is a child. That that is how I am seeing. You know, when Seth goes over to you know one of the head guys's house and they're all like watching. They're watching the Wall Street or they talk about Glenn Gary, glenn Ross. You know they're eating pizza and there's like nothing set up in the entire house but a couch and a TV.
Jerri Williams: 45:46
Seth. What's up? Man Wait outside.
Clip: 45:48
I thought you weren't going to make it. Man, sit down, grab a slice, have a beer. You think he fucked?
Clip: 45:52
Hannah, or you think she fucked her Both of them. He's just moving in. What do you?
Taylor D. Adams: 45:58
mean he's been there eight months. When I was apartment hopping while I was in college and recently after college, I didn't unpack either. But yeah, I was like in my early 20s, like you're still you're not developed yet, like you're still figuring stuff out, which I think is so important to kind of showcase those kind of individuals in this movie and how young they are when they're putting on a performance of how they think an adult should act.
Jerri Williams: 46:21
So there is a line in the movie where Seth is told that he needed to act as if. Act as if you're rich, act as if you're the best investment stockbroker there is to put on that air. It's almost like the uh, the fake it till you make it yeah and I think that is one of the things that you see throughout the movie when you talk about these guys that you know are trying to live large, but they're really boys. You know young boys acting as if they're men yeah, a yeah 100.
Taylor D. Adams: 47:01
That's what I was getting. The whole time I was like these are kids. These are children trying to, they're when they're on the phone, pretending that these things like that's part of sales, um, try to. I don't think. I don't, can't remember if they uh say this in this movie, but it's just the first job I ever full for a time, full-time bob ever had.
Taylor D. Adams: 47:20
I was a car salesman and the sales technique was to get somebody to say yes three times to anything and then you got him on the hook and I'm like that's it brought me back to that way of thinking where you can say the goal is for you to say whatever you need to in order to get your, your mark or whoever, to say yes three times. And the fact that these are such young people just doing what they've been like, been what they feel like success is, and it's not even just because their boss is telling them that. It's because, like, what's important, money is important and what's out right now, like these, the, or what's out within the past decade, like these movies that portray success, these movies that kind of we can take the wrong message from, like I know plenty of people watch Wolf of Wall Street and take the wrong message from that movie. The wrong message from that movie and it's just super fascinating to me that we've got a movie about that and then your central character realizes how wrong everything is and breaks away.
Jerri Williams: 48:27
And that may be what I love about this movie, because you're right. In Wolf of Wall Street, I mean, they celebrate this gluttonous need for money and stuff and you see that in Boiler Room, but then you get to see the other side of it. That is probably. You know what you just reminded me. My very first job was telemarketing Really, and get this was telemarketing Really, and get this. I sold Sears maintenance agreements to people who had just purchased, you know, wash machines and dryers. Are you sure you weren't part of a con? I work for Sears but I'm sure we use some of those and it's not like I forgot about that. But you know, connecting that, that first job to this movie and my career kind of came full circle. Yeah, it's also the first well, the only time I was ever fired too.
Jerri Williams: 49:33
Oh so it was my first job, Okay, I worked at in high school. I had to go to this little office and get on the phone with the lead card to people who had just recently purchased. This is amazing that I'm thinking about this two or three year extended warranty service. And a lot of times people you know the machine wasn't working right, it had already had to be serviced, and you know so they were irate, you know. Oh, while you're on the phone, let me tell you the knob came off, you know, and so they're yelling at you. And so one time a customer was yelling at me and had slammed the phone down and hung up. And after they hung up I said something and slammed the phone down and hung up, but I wasn't talking to the client, but my boss thought I was. I got fired, Wow. But you know what?
Taylor D. Adams: 50:35
Yeah, I hated that job. I mean, yeah, I imagine when you took that you were like, oh, this is the career I'm going to have.
Jerri Williams: 50:42
Yeah, Telemarketing is a hard job and so just having to take that breath and pick up the phone and dial it again, knowing that you're going to have to make hundreds of calls to get that one, yes, is very, very difficult. So not that I feel sorry for telemarketers I'm. You know, when I get a call, luckily on the cell phone, you know they tell you right now probably spam and say you can ignore it.
Taylor D. Adams: 51:13
Yeah, potentially spam. I get that a lot yeah.
Jerri Williams: 51:16
But yeah, yeah, that's really strange. I forgot about that. That's funny how it works out, maybe that's why I like this movie so much.
Taylor D. Adams: 51:24
I like to think that for me at least, like professionally, when I go from one long term gig to another, whether it's like it's devoting all of my time and I'm getting paid, or it's just a passion project that I'm really into, I find that whatever I'm I work on next has built upon what I've previously worked on and it just kind of goes and goes, and goes and goes, and so that's how I I mean, that's kind of what. What happened with you, at least from this kind of like you know, um yeah, from telemarketer to FBI agent who worked on a telemarketing scam, who then loves this movie?
Taylor D. Adams: 51:59
I think it makes total sense, okay.
Jerri Williams: 52:01
Wow, thank you. How much did I owe you for this therapy session for me to find my innermost motivation?
Taylor D. Adams: 52:10
You can donate at patreoncom slash film nuts. This was so much fun. I'm so glad you came on the show and I can't thank you enough, and I'm really looking forward to reading your book FBI Myths and Misconceptions a manual for armchair detectives. Oh man, I can't wait to solve a crime after this. Thanks, jerri, you're welcome.
Taylor D. Adams: 52:34
The reason I love doing the show is that everyone has different reasons for enjoying what they love and sometimes on the show my guest is able to discover even more of those reasons and I'm not going to lie, it feels pretty good if I'm the one helping someone else deepen their love for their favorite movie or favorite TV show. I think it's incredibly cool how our upbringing, our job, our goals and much more influence what we love to watch. A huge thanks to Jerri for chatting with me today and a $50,000 stock option to you for joining us in our little discussion. Before you go, please check out Jerri's podcast FBI Retired Case File Review and the many books she's written. You'll find a link to all that stuff in the show notes. If you enjoyed the show today, please go ahead and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform of choice to stay up to date on all of our episodes and if you happen to be listening to this on Apple Podcasts, please leave a rating and review. We really appreciate it and it helps us get noticed by more awesome people like yourself, and I produce all these episodes out of my own pocket, so if you want to help support the show, please consider backing us on Patreon. For more info on that, check out the show notes or visit patreoncom.
Taylor D. Adams: 53:46
Slash film nuts, our theme this season, is brought to us by J Mac, our artwork is designed by Madungwa Subuhudi, our head of production is Keaton Lusk, and all episodes of the film nuts podcast are are produced and edited by me, taylor D Adams. If you want to get in touch, you can email filmnutspodcast at gmailcom or follow us on Instagram and TikTok at filmnutspodcast. And don't forget to join the Nuthouse Discord community absolutely free by checking out the link in the show notes. There's all kinds of cool people in there who love movies and TV and all kinds of entertainment, so jump on in. Thank you all again. So much for joining me today and until next time, I hope your parents approve of all your decisions or not Uh, I don't know your life. Um, just do what makes you happy and don't hurt anyone, okay? Um, I'm going to read uh Jerri's book now. Um, yeah, I'm excited. Anyway, hope you'll join us next time. Bye.